Clay Jones by Clay Jones

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  1. GNWachs

    GNWachsGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    But he didn’t say this until after he said they would get better and they didn’t. Spend $787B and unemployment will remain below 8.5%. It didn’t. My health care plan will decrease expenditures. GAO, no it won’t.
    Next we have a national malaise.

  2. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    yes, some in the country must be going through withdrawal pains after eight years of falsehoods, lies and misdirection

  3. senorbullwinkle

    senorbullwinkleGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    OH yes he did lie. Remember that old woman at the McCain rally ? She told us that hes a, that he’s a, that he’s a, Egyptian ? And he’s not even a citizen. He’s going to turn the White House into a pyramid, with a mote with gators in it .And put a Mexican flag on top. You have to have an “E” ticket to get inside and have to speak Russian and swear on a bible that he’s God.Or into the mote you go.

  4. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    sometimes, senor, you crack me up!

  5. GNWachs

    GNWachsGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    BCS: So when Bush lies you are aghast but when Obama does it, don’t worry. But he promised us a new way of governing. New - new lies.

  6. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    What has Obama lied about?

    My disappointment with Obama is when he has allowed some previous policies on executive branch secrecy to continue. However, I’ve reconsidered my displeasure at his decision not to release photos of detainee abuse on the battlefields (different from abuse at Abu Ghraib) because if the release could cause harm to our troops, he’s correct not to release.

    I’m disappointed in some ways that his actions have not been bolder, but the difficulty in dealing with Congress on healthcare reform shows how hard it is to work with Congress when some are intent are dissembling for partisan purposes.

    and BTW, Bush and Cheney’s lies sent our country to war on false premises. A war that was badly planned from day one, that was incompetently executed, often ignoring information from ground commanders that disagreed with Cheny, Rumsfeld, Feith, et al, and a war that Bush kept off the balance books so he could continue with his plan to reduce taxes on the wealthy and influential.

    To say I am aghast at likes perpetuated by the Bush administration is an understatement.

    BTW, my question to you about what Obama has lied about is serious.

  7. HOWGOZIT

    HOWGOZIT said, 4 months ago

    No this administration does not lie–they just misread or were given wrong informtion. Bush however lied repeatedly–LOL. Guess he should have made up global warming or invented the internet. All politicians are liars.

  8. DrCanuck

    DrCanuck said, 4 months ago

    BCS: I’m an Obama supporter, but he did say he would be transparent, then stopped the publication of the thousands of torture photographs that remain hidden. I’m quite upset about that.

  9. parkersinthehouse

    parkersinthehouse said, 4 months ago

    torture photographs feed sick tendancies. torture photographs inflame enemy hatred. only further horror can come from publishing photographs of the torture of humanity.

  10. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    DocCanookie: i addressed that in my post. If publication of these new abuse photos on the battlefield were to endanger troops on the ground, it would be irresponsible to release them at this time.

  11. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    Howie, Bush et al did lie repeatedly. It’s well documented and well-sourced and his own military commanders were telling him the truth, but, as I said, Cheney/Rumsfeld/Feith et al thought they all new better.

    Remember Mission Accomplished; remember major combat operations are over; remember claims there was no insurgency, just a few thugs left; remember no one could have anticipated planes going into the WTC (even though the CIA warned them in August); remember no one could have anticipated looting in Iraq, even though ground commanders begged for more troops well in advance because looting occurred in the first Iraq war; remember no one could have anticipated the levees would breach, even though they had been specifically told it was a real possibility three days in advance of the storm hitting shore?

    Remember all the statements by Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld and Bush in the early days of the war about what they had “found” in Iraq, all of which ultimately proved to be false.

    I can give you a list of books to read, Howie, to remind you if you’ve forgotten all that.

    and you come back with Biden’s dumb statement about they didn’t realize how bad it really was? (and it was gaffe-prone Biden, not Obama and not other top advisors.)

  12. oldlegodad

    oldlegodadGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    800#, mayhaps DrCanooky “Likes” to view torture pics for grins.

  13. DrCanuck

    DrCanuck said, 4 months ago

    BCS: The groups fighting against American occupation in the Middle East are already well informed as to America’s treatment of its prisoners, so I don’t see how the troops could be any more endangered.
    But it would bring the criminality of the previous administration out in the open (daylight being the best disinfectant) so America can face its crimes and start the healing process.

    But, back to the original question, it was a lie (or at least, a reversal of course).

  14. believecommonsense

    believecommonsenseGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    reversed position, yes and it is not the same as lying, IMHO.
    Obama has reversed position on some issues involving national security involved with this war … it makes me think he must have learned things when he became President that has made him choose a more cautious course

  15. nomad2112
  16. DrCanuck

    DrCanuck said, 4 months ago

    BCS: Yes, and that’s what’s got me truly terrified. What did Obama learn about the torture (once he became president) that caused him to change his mind? Lots of horrific secrets, I suspect, that have far more to do with Americans’ self-concept than with national security..

  17. David

    DavidGenius_badge said, 4 months ago

    Obama is no different than any other Chicago politician before him.

    The change he promised America was bunk from the start.

    I think it is that he things we’re stupid. He and his buddies…they figure if they say lots of pretty words and shift things around here and there and sell them as something totally different that we’d by this bill of goods.

    To his dismay, a majority of Americans are not this stupid.

  18. 4uk4ata

    4uk4ata said, 4 months ago

    “I think it is that he things we’re stupid. He and his buddies…they figure if they say lots of pretty words and shift things around here and there and sell them as something totally different that we’d by this bill of goods.”

    Nothing his predecessor(s) had not done, really.

    @ Parker - so tell me, would it be fine with you if the US ran secret prisons, tortured, and broke every law about it (including some of its own) as long as we did not know about it? Is that the kind of country that should be, if not the leader then at least the most powerful country of the so-called free world?

    I’m not a fanatic of everything US, but I have a high enough opinion of America and its people to not want them to go through that.

  19. lightartsteacher

    lightartsteacher said, 4 months ago

    reversed position, yes and it is not the same as lying, IMHO.
    Obama has reversed position on some issues involving national security involved with this war … it makes me think he must have learned things when he became President that has made him choose a more cautious course
    Flag

    Well, Well, bravo! You actually know how to think,!

  20. parkersinthehouse

    parkersinthehouse said, 4 months ago

    4, aren’t you asking an absurd question? surely you did not glean such a bizarre desire on my part from my post.

    there are other people, in administrative and war planning positions, with more knowledge than mine, of the psychology of releasing torture photographs, as opposed to, say, numbers of coffins brought in from the field.

    a few of us have a few degrees, some with majors or minors in soc, psych, polsci, crim, phil, econ, who are able to clarify it further.

    i mean we can go head to head about it, but attack routes, targets, agents and double agents, equipment, air and ground info, stuff like that - i don’t think we want to share.

    and, are we mistakenly wanting the world to know our secrets? or are we just wanting to know for ourselves, because if one knows, the other does.

    but, to answer, no.

  21. 4uk4ata

    4uk4ata said, 4 months ago

    @ Parker - the question was rhetorical, of course. However, I think that it was important that if someone in the military did something illegal under the relevant law, they are investigated and the issue is brought to light. Just like government, it is a powerful entity that, if left unchecked, can harm the people it is created to serve. The US has been lucky enough, historically, not to have experienced that - but plenty of countries have not. This is why I am generally opposed to the US classifying the evidence of the abuse.

    Also, such a shameful issue - and I do believe it was shameful - can not be cleared up if it is being denied. Remember how Bush and his men (and women) went on about how the US does not torture? Yes, there will be outrage (some of it, perhaps, deserved?) and hostility, but that is a necessary part in dealing with an issue that would otherwise be left to fester and poison the US’ image and relationships.

    As for actual military information, the kind that you referred to in your fourth paragraph, of course certain things should be classified. However, abuse should be known and prosecuted - whether in the government, army, police authorities, or the private sector.

  22. parkersinthehouse

    parkersinthehouse said, 4 months ago

    4
    “investigated and exposed”

    yes, but to whom? to makers of the law, litigators, judiciary, but are you suggesting these are issues for the world’s eyes? because exposure doesn’t confine itself to the army, to the usa or to north america, but exposure, in the 21st century, is global. it’s not one or the other; it’s all.

    “known and prosecuted”

    yes; on that we agree. abuse described and punished - we agree. it’s not the same as abuse pictured (as opposed to described) and disseminated world-wide (as opposed to litigated in house).

    you talk of hostility, festering issues, poison of u.s. image - what do you think it will become - after such extensive damage by w - if we release photographs which would place us solidly in the international torture regime.

    we could blame w/cheney; we could even incarcerate them, but the global community will see us as torturers nevertheless.

    nobody’s right or wrong i suppose. i just feel like the nation is not healed enough to cause another bleeding wound by publishing torture photos. we could probably use another year in recovery.

  23. lightartsteacher

    lightartsteacher said, 4 months ago

    BCS—EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS WRONG!

  24. lightartsteacher

    lightartsteacher said, 4 months ago

    AND WHEN YOU ARE AT A LOSS FOR ANYTHING SENSIBLE TO SAY, NAMECALLING IS AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE FOR A 6TH GRADER.

  25. lightartsteacher

    lightartsteacher said, 4 months ago

    ParkerintheHouse, How kind of you to care that the nation isn’t healed enough to look at torture photos of our enemies. I’m glad we don’t have torture photos of the men that Al Qaida kidnapped and killed, too. After, all some of us are mothers of military men, me included. The families of those dead men and women, will thank you democrats for not allowing their loved ones to be viewed like butchers’ meat, after standing in the gap between you and those who would visit violence on you and others here. The nation as a whole is your first concern, what about the families of the dead? What about the dead themselves? Do you owe them anything? Like: Gratitude?

  26. 4uk4ata

    4uk4ata said, 4 months ago

    @lightartsteacher - I do not know of Al-Queda in particular, but many of the kidnapper groups were not exactly shy to show their victims’ executions. They actually broadcast videos with it.

    @Parker - the thing is, everyone knows torture happened. If the US wants to clear its reputation and reaffirm its previous standing, imo it has to show that this was in the past and will no longer happen. This can only happen, however, if the US government is open and honest about the entire thing.

    If Germany could resume its place among the western countries after WWII and what its army and police did then, the US has little to worry about - as long as it shows that Abu Ghraib and the rest were aberrations rather than examples of what America stands for.

  27. Michigander

    Michigander said, 4 months ago

    Not all Presidents lie; some just hide the truth.

  28. parkersinthehouse

    parkersinthehouse said, 3 months ago

    everyone knows - yes

    open and honest - yes

    convict and punish - yes

    move forward - yes

    display our images of torture like the terrorists have done - no

  29. churchillwasright

    churchillwasright said, 3 months ago

    PARKER: Have you seen images of what the terrorists have done? I don’t think so, unless you went out of your way to find them on the net. The MSM have decided that we cannot handle it. Personally, I’d like the beheadings and folks jumping to their deaths from the World Trade Center to be shown, at least occassionally. Then when we see our “torture”, which in many cases are nothing worse than college hazing, we could put them in perspective.

  30. DrCanuck

    DrCanuck said, 3 months ago

    So the photos of torture have been hidden by the Pentagon and the White House due to their brutality, no one else had seen them, but Choich’ in his infinite wisdom somehow “knows” that they are nothing more than college hazing.

    Ain’t it fun when people pretend to know what they’re talking about and then get all outraged when no one else agrees with them?

  31. foxglove16

    foxglove16Genius_badge said, 3 months ago

    lightartsteacher, I’m puzzled. I do not see where bcs has resorted to name calling. I do think a post (or 2 of them) with all caps saying everything you say is wrong is uncivil discourse.