Calvin and Hobbes by Bill Watterson

Tags: yes, insulted!, bad, list, Santa, existance, Debate, calvin, god, philosophy, hobbes. Add Tags

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Margueritem said, 9 months ago

He doubts his doubts….
Yukoner said, 9 months ago

I was busy yesterday and did not get to C&H until after there were 100+ posts, mostly about religion. I read all of them and was both amused and appalled. Although I am not sure if this is the appropriate forum for a religious debate, I have no real problem with people expressing their point of view and was impressed with some of the views proffered although I realize that those on either side will never convince those on the other to accept their views, at least not in this forum. However, what I found unacceptable was the significant number of posts on both sides of the issue that gave way to name calling and personal attack. These have clearly no place in this forum. I am therefore suggesting that all of us flag any post that makes a personal attack on another member. That is not to say that we should not be allowed to disagree. Indeed, honest discussion and debate is appropriate but personal invective passes beyond the bounds of acceptability. I would welcome feedback about the idea of flagging certain types of comment as inappropriate. In the meantime, have a great day.
wndrwrthg said, 9 months ago

Calvin, you were born under a bad sign.
Gweedo Murray said, 9 months ago

Sounds good yukoner.
Gweedo Murray said, 9 months ago

If it wasn’t for Hobbes he’d have no luck at all.
SaintRCat said, 9 months ago

Religious debate really has little overall value on the internet, at least in the way it is usually done. Actions speak louder than words, but with the total anonymity on the internet, words are all there is, and the only words people tend to see here are those they want to hear, or see. I doubt many people turn to Jesus or go a different path just because of a forum post on a comic about Santa. Sure, trading ideas is usually nice, but these debates never really result in such.

However, while I don’t mean to insult anyone, I have to question how much free time people who leave “debate bait” on these comics have. It’s rather sad that people would rather spend time trying to start an argument with random strangers rather than do something more productive.
LX013 said, 9 months ago

Try to put it in order Calvin!
m_ortal said, 9 months ago

I’m watching everyone.
socraties said, 9 months ago

Is there any other comic strip that attracts religious discussions than C&H ?
JonD17 said, 9 months ago

Yukoner,
that sounds like a good plan to me

makin’ note to self to watch out for those eggnog brains……..
SaintRCat, you make a couple of excellent points too.
Carmy said, 9 months ago

Panel 4 is so perfect. You tell him Hobbes!
Yukoner, yesterday was way too crazy. Your comments are right on, no one should get personally attacked.
BirishB said, 9 months ago

Yukoner – I agree in principal, but disagree in execution. “Flagging” is a subjective call, as is “offensive.” Perhaps the solution lies in encouraging all to ignore those posts that get under your skin – if the post makes you angry or hits a nerve, don’t respond. I believe the solution also lies in knowing that once one attacks the person, the argument is conceded. Additionally, it may be useful to point out objectionable posts – if you see something you don’t like, don’t “flag” it, but do let them know you don’t like how they say what they have to say.

As unacceptable as an “insulting” post may be, the greater insult, in my mind, is censorship. We all have different sensitivities; while there are some things that are patently offensive, we can not say with certitude what should be objectionable. Unfortunately, we have to put up with the “objectionable” post so that the “approvable” post can be made.

“I disagre with what you say, but I defend to my death your right to say it.” Patrick Henry
BirishB said, 9 months ago

I think Calvin might be confusing the “bad” list with the “naughty” list … bad he ain’t, but naughty? Ummmm … yup!
GuntotingLiberal said, 9 months ago

I never really understood why religion ends up being so limited by us anyway. Why can God and doubt and faith and science not get along?

Let it be a lifelong journey towards enlightenment. Doubt is a powerful tool in the seeking of truth. And as for science in God haters… the more I understand about the universe, the more impossible it is to believe that there’s no greater organizing force.

Evolution is beautiful! Have you never studied it closely? What an amazing, resilient, tenacious thing life is. Take a look at it even on the microbial level. Look at the drive for small life to not only survive, but to become more complex! How absurd. How counterintuitive, in a universe that slowly cools itself towards entropy. What is driving life itself to fight itself upwards against the stream?

Assuming that you’re Christian, and not a freelance agnostic like me, why cannot an omnicient, omnipotent being have done something for life other than wave his magic wand, figuratively speaking?
Nairebis said, 9 months ago

Personally, I like to promote atheism not because I think I’m going to change anyone’s mind (if the absurd parts of the bible don’t do that by itself, nothing will), it’s to generally promote a world environment that it’s okay to be an atheist. The old generation is set in its ways, but each new generation thinks for itself. It’s very difficult to overcome religion when it seems like “everyone” believes. Well, everyone doesn’t believe, and in fact, a LOT of people don’t (some estimates are as high as 20%, depending on how the question is phrased). But religious people are notoriously bigoted against non-believers, so to get by in this world, you have to pretend to believe (or at least not rock the boat).

It’s all about saving the next generation, not trying to change the ones that are already gone.

It’s okay to be an atheist. You are far from alone. And yes, it’s okay to celebrate Christmas as a traditional winter holiday. :)

And I believe this is entirely appropriate to discuss within a strip about a boy and his imaginary friend. ;D
kiMoi said, 9 months ago

Gosh Hobbes, what if I don’t go to heaven when I die because I doubted the existence of God?

Don’t worry Calvin. I think you’ll be alright.
iknowtruthismine said, 9 months ago

All that religionists require is that Atheists keep their mouths shut, which is as far as they can go in our secular society since they are no longer allowed to kill us heretics. Good luck with that.
GuntotingLiberal said, 9 months ago

I have no real problem with athiesm per se. Truth be told, I probably skirt it given that I am currently undecided whether the organizational force that perpetuates life in the universe is sentient. It may be, like gravity, just some unexplored law that says, become living!

But if you believe in absolutely nothing, no overriding force, then the probability that life evolved on earth to our level starts looking like the odds of winning Powerball from now until the end of time. And if there is nothing, and earth is the cosmic fluke, then the chances are extremely good that we are alone in the universe. So if there is no other life, and we’re alone and a fluke, then what is the point of intelligence? And by way of that reasoning, the point of life? The point of existence?

I always did wonder how a true athiest makes peace with those questions. I’m interested in your insight :)
cleokaya said, 9 months ago

Hobbes is about to flag Calvin for the insult. Santa is sure to take note.
Doctor Toon said, 9 months ago

I have my own faith, and I discuss when and where I feel it is appropriate. When a comic or the comments move me to put my two cents in I will. Most of the time I agree that the internet is not the proper place to proselytize.

I do draw a distinction between faith and religion.

Faith is a personal spiritual relationship. Religion is like the game we called telephone that we played as kids.

By the time a message is repeated, recopied, re translated, and rewritten over thousands of years it’s original meaning can be radically changed
PlainBill said, 9 months ago

GtL, your question is the result of inductive logic. Certainly the chance of intelligent life arising spontaneously is very, very remote. By comparison, the chances of winning the powerball is ‘a lead pipe cinch’. Yet the powerball is won several times a year. (I don’t play it, so I don’t know how often).

Currently estimates indicate that there are 200-400 billion stars in our galaxy, and perhaps as many as 500 billion galaxies in the universe. This yields an estimated 200,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe. Truly, those are astronomical odds that intelligent life must exist SOMEWHERE. And of course, Earth happened to be one of the planets that won this cosmic jackpot. After all, if there wasn’t intelligent life here, the question couldn’t be asked.
primacyofreason said, 9 months ago

GuntotingLiberal, those are all good questions. The laws of physics, which stem from the nature of matter, are the “overriding force” in the universe. If you’re interested in a good book on the subject of why evolution to such a complex level isn’t as unlikely as you might think, read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. The point of intelligence is the improved ability for the human race to survive. That doesn’t imply a higher power to me. It underscores the power of natural selection. Asking the point of life and existence kind of pre-supposes the existence of a god, doesn’t it? Life and existence are the point in and of themselves. Live your life in a way that’s appropriate for social beings with the ability to reason. Don’t really need religion for that.

No one can sufficiently answer every question about how the universe and life came into existence. We just don’t have the knowledge yet. But personally, I prefer to believe that there’s a logical explanation rather than falling back on the idea that some cosmic being created it. How did god come into existence then? Who created god? And if you can believe god “just is” why can’t that be true of the universe and life?
Lampasas said, 9 months ago

Great point Yukoner. Unfortunately as we can see it’s begun.
GuntotingLiberal said, 9 months ago

Mmm, yes. PlainBill I agree and disagree… You’re right, the odds are pretty good that life would exist. But intelligent life? Powerball number one, that somehow inanimate muck turned into living primordial slime. That it eventually became us by chaos is the statistical mind boggler. It is true that an infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typwriters, etc. But matter in the universe is not infinite, and then the odds of it happening twice are even more unlikely. Three times would be statistically impossible. And then Star Trek could never happen :( Hehe.
bp61 said, 9 months ago

Well here goes, I’ve been reading C&H for a while now (my absolute fav comic) and have enjoyed reading the comments. It has amazed me that such an innocent cartoon can spark such a deep conversation. I consider myself a Christian, not a “Baptist”, not a “Catholic”, not a “Mormon”, etc… a Christian, I believe in God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, and Santa!! That’s me! I don’t feel it is my responsibility to “save” anyone else. Your beliefs are your beliefs. In reading many of the comments over the past several days, I can’t help but recall this story:
An atheist was walking through the woods one day in Alaska admiring all that evolution had created.

“What majestic trees!
What a powerful river!
What beautiful animals!” he said to himself.
As he walked alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. Turning to look, he saw a 13 foot Kodiak bear beginning to charge toward him. He ran as fast as he could down the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again and the bear was even closer. His heart pounding in his chest he tried to run even faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground. As he rolled over to pick himself up he saw the bear reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to deliver a killing blow.
“OH MY GOD!” he pleadingly screamed.
Time stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.
Even the powerful river stopped flowing.

A brilliant light shone upon the man and a thunderous voice came from all around,
“YOU DENY MY EXISTENCE FOR ALL THESE YEARS. YOU TEACH OTHERS THAT I DON’T EXIST. YOU EVEN CREDIT CREATION TO SOME COSMIC ACCIDENT. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO HELP YOU OUT OF THIS PREDICAMENT? AM I TO COUNT YOU AS A BELIEVER? ”

Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light and said, “It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years and under these circumstances but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian? ”
“VERY WELL” said the voice.

The light went out.
The river ran.
The sounds of the forest resumed.

The huge bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed and spoke…………
“Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive.”
Dry said, 9 months ago

Yukoner, I got caught up in this yesterday, but not today! I am here to enjoy Calvin & Hobbes and all the other great strips! I come here to laugh or smile, not to get angry! Let’s all give it a rest, huh? As I said yesterday, there are other websites to go to if you want to debate!
GuntotingLiberal said, 9 months ago

Primacyofreason you are correct. I should be more clear though on my personal view that when I say God I don’t mean an entity that is necessarily intelligent, sentient, or aware of us. It could just as easily be called the Godlaw. Some rule of the universe that impacts matter and drives it towards life, the way gravity drives atoms to form an attractional force. That intelligence eventually evolves seems logical from this end, but it’s the beginning part that is a wonder. Nevertheless I’ll check out the book :) It sounds interesting. Good way to start the day, working the brain. And now I must be off!
redsheri said, 9 months ago

And more and more religious debate. May I remind every one that this is a COMIC STRIP meant to entertain? Just sit back and enjoy it please. Calvin is so funny with his insults! :-) I love his expression in the last pannell!
grazer said, 9 months ago

When it comes to Santa and/or God, I think we’re doing a far worse job of self-justification than a 6 year old cartoon kid is.
Nairebis said, 9 months ago

@GuntotingLiberal – you ask what the point of life is. And I ask you in return:

Why does life “have” to have a point?

There is no point to life. It simply *is*. We achieved self-awareness through natural forces. It’s an unbelievably wonderous thing! I can fully appreciate how amazing the fact of our existence is.

Unfortunately, the mere beauty of the machine of life is not enough for some people, and they cry to the sky, “There Has To Be More!”

Why does there have to be more? Of course, the reason is that people fear that our short time on existence is all there is. They don’t want to imagine that they will cease to exist. It’s a very odd thing to try and imagine… what becomes of the world if we’re not around to perceive it? When we die, infinite time passes instantly!

So instead of trying to imagine the unimaginable fact of non-existence, it’s much more “fun” to imagine a heavenly wonderland with an all-powerful father that will cure our pain and suffering. That’s certainly a much better fate than nothingness.

But imagination is not reality. There is no point to life. We get our short time on Earth, and then we wink out of existence, and our subjective universe winks out with us.
Marderofski said, 9 months ago

@doctortoon

Religion is like the game we called telephone that we played as kids.
By the time a message is repeated, recopied, re translated, and rewritten over thousands of years it’s original meaning can be radically changed.

Thank you.
teaguemj said, 9 months ago

Parents who sign “Santa” instead of “Mom and Dad” give up their spot in this dialogue to an imaginary elf.
Northwoodser said, 9 months ago

Here we go again. Bring out the soap boxes so everyone with half a brain can orate. BORING!
plus4 said, 9 months ago

<< All that religionists require is that Atheists keep their mouths shut, which is as far as they can go in our secular society since they are no longer allowed to kill us heretics. >>
Are you really that unaware of New Testament Christianity and 20th century history? Those together would tell you who’s more likely to end up killing who. When I see murderous hostility in the present day, it’s inevitably directed toward the “religious.” I wonder if it’s just a matter of time before it goes beyond mere words.

<< Evolution is beautiful! Have you never studied it closely? …Look at the drive for small life to not only survive, but to become more complex! >>
I’ve been a Christian for a long time, but that’s not the reason I can’t accept evolutionism. I can’t accept it because it’s supposed to be solid science, but it has failed to make its case scientifically. (That’s a long story in itself; for a start, the observation of any life truly becoming “more complex” has yet to happen.) It depends entirely on the silencing of all opposing views, because it can’t stand on evidence.

It breaks my heart to see so many otherwise intelligent adults trying to force something to be true that any insightful 10-year-old can see isn’t. It’s the classic case of people being fools while thinking they’re wise. (You can’t tell me the NT doesn’t have human nature pretty well pegged.)
pookid54 said, 9 months ago

PLEASE STOP WITH ALL THIS RELIGIOUS ARGUMENT!!! IT’S RIDICULOUS!!!! It’s like trying to defend and justify your favorite flavor of ice cream over someone else’s. It’s nonsense. Each to his/her own beliefs and “tastes” and let’s enjoy the comics!!!
Radical-Knight said, 9 months ago

Go back to sleep northwoodser, these people are doing a lot of heave thinking here.
.
Teaguemj - St. Nicklaus (St. Nick or S. Clause) is based upon a real person. Early Christian origins Saint Nicholas of Myra is the primary inspiration for the Christian figure of Santa Claus. He was a 4th-century Greek Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of the Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes. He was very religious from an early age and devoted his life entirely to Christianity.
.
People, yes there is a time and a place for discussions. If you want to enjoy the cartoons, don’t look at the confusing little letters under the pictures. I don’t agree with everything said here, but I like hearing different points of view. I DON’T like listening to whiners, but that’s your right as well (to whine).
bubbie7 said, 9 months ago

bp61-that was a great story-thanks
Wildmustang1262 said, 9 months ago

Yukoner, you are first person to post the comment about the religion debate on C&H yesterday. Your comments sounded very good.
I really want all of you not to post the comments about the religion. Keep it to yourselves and enjoy reading the comic strips. Yesterday afternoon, I went to check it out and read more comments on each comic strips. I would not read the whole comments (+100 or more) Forget it!
And also, supposedly if one person insults with profanity word, it will change to ‘bleep’ on the post comment. We all have to remember that before we post the comments on the comic strips.
Please, let all of us enjoy reading those comic strips that will make us smile, laugh or whatever.
Keep yourselves in peace and enjoy the views! :-]

By the way, Calvin was afraid his name would be on the bad or naughty list; therefore, he would not get any presents on Christmas Day. Calvin, not to worry, be prepare to be behaved yourself as a good boy! Wink! ;-]
primacyofreason said, 9 months ago

Personally, I think it’s a great thing that C&H can spark an open debate about philosophical questions. Bill Waterson named Calvin and Hobbes after religious and political philosophers for a reason, after all. I think he really did intend for the reader to think and talk about these things.
Carmy said, 9 months ago

Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful!
Person 2: I love the mountains, I think they are beautiful too!
GOOD :)

Person 1: I love the beach, I think it’s beautiful!
Person 2: The beach blows big time, the mountains are better and you are a doofus if you think otherwise!!
BAD :(
Nairebis said, 9 months ago

@carmy – your analogy is not quite complete, alas.

Person 1: It’s fine if you like the mountains, but I’m afraid they don’t work for me.

Person 2: No, the mountains are awesome, and if you don’t accept that, we will kill you. Well, killing you is against the law these days, so we’ll just ostracize you, never elect you to public office, and want to lead chants in your children’s classrooms praising the glory of the mountains. And don’t you know that the founding fathers intended this to be a “Mountain Country”?

Note that Religion versus Atheism is NOT mountains versus beaches. Atheism is not a religion, it’s the lack of a belief in supernatural god(s). Just like a lack of belief in Santa Claus is not a religion.
Jack Brady said, 9 months ago

I don’t understand atheism. How can you believe in nothing? How are you made? How was the galaxy shaped? Etc etc etc. And do NOT say big bang. Thats just bs.
afboi120 said, 9 months ago

I love these guys!
Carmy said, 9 months ago

Beaches, mountains or religion, atheism. Whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs, etc. The point is don’t put someone down because of what they know in their mind or heart to be true. It hurts their feelings. In case you hadn’t noticed, several people from BOTH
sides have had their feelings hurt here recently.
GuntotingLiberal said, 9 months ago

Plus4, technically there are few things solid about science. There is still so much for us to learn about the way things work. I can understand why some people are skeptical about evolution in the context of existing as both theory and fact. But I can give another example in science that goes generally unquestioned. Even gravity itself has not been unreservedly classified as a law.

There are some things in science, just as in religion, that require personal study and a small leap of faith to connect the gaps, and nevertheless have room for both science and God or what have you to both have a hand in. For example, having a baby (this may also meet your criteria for life becoming more complex, depending on how you want to break it down). We understand the biology of how a fetus develops as well as we understand anything at this point. We know that there are two small parts that somehow become a working cell that becomes an undeveloped version of a human being. But for all we know of the science, there’s an element of the unknown too. Philosophists for generations have picked apart the idea of consciousness, and we’re really no closer to having a concrete idea of how it works than we are of how it starts. This doesn’t mean that it can’t be (one day) quantified by science at all, nor does the ability for us to do so negate the potential existence of a higher order (be it god or a universal law or whatnot) IMO.
#1 redskins fan said, 9 months ago

I must say that I’m sorry I got pulled into the religious discussion yesterday. My pastor has told me that you can’t argue theology with non-believers, and I forgot that, being caught up in the moment. It is true that nothing I say on this forum will change anyone’s mind. I will keep my faith close to my sleeve, and pray for atheists, that they may have a change of heart, and the Holy Spirit will do a work within them. God Bless You, Carmy! Nairebis- I prayed for you last night, and will continue to do so. Love Calvin’s face in the last panel!
pookid54 said, 9 months ago

You know people are getting hurt, you know passions are enraged, you know most people don’t want to hear about religious beliefs, you know that this is a comics page and yet you continue to throw your religious beliefs and dislikes of others beliefs out on the comics pages!!!!!!!!! You want to debate religion, please go to a debate page and debate there!!! Not here at a place where most people go to escape BS!!!!!! If you are religious, you know that it’s all about EVERYONE, not just what you believe. It’s about being kind and considerate. If you are not religious, you know that it’s all about EVERYONE, not just what you don’t believe. It’s about being kind and considerate. NOW KNOCK IT OFF!!!!!
pookid54 said, 9 months ago

To Radical-Knight…..I enjoy the comics and then the comments REGARDING the comics. There are many intelligent and witty people here. The attacks and the people that choose the comments section to have the last words about what they believe have absolutely nothing to do with the comics. I am not whining….I just think that we need to remember where we are. Put the comics pages into perspective. We are here to giggle, laugh, and add a little levity into what is now a very difficult time for a lot of us, not argue over something that has nothing to do with the comics. I am sorry you didn’t see it that way. I hope there is not a next time where I need to be clearer.
wndrwrthg said, 9 months ago

The one thing that I really cannot stand about the religious, is their “holier than thou” attitude.
green_engineer said, 9 months ago

Redskins Fan - your last comment is absolutely right.

Bill Watterson had every intention of stirring this debate. After all, he is portraying his views through little Calvin.

Anyhow, I love the comic and that will never change regardless of the debates. I think that’s at least one thing all us readers have in common!